1 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:10,790 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 2 00:00:14,780 --> 00:00:12,450 controversial science with leading 3 00:00:17,060 --> 00:00:14,790 researchers thinkers and their critics 4 00:00:18,650 --> 00:00:17,070 I'm your host Aleksic harris and on this 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:18,660 episode of skeptical we're going to do 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:21,570 something a little bit different as you 7 00:00:26,569 --> 00:00:24,330 may have heard dr. Evan Alexander has a 8 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:26,579 new book out the books titled proof of 9 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:29,550 heaven and dr. Alexander is going to 10 00:00:33,950 --> 00:00:32,220 appear on skeptic Oh next week in an 11 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:33,960 interview re recorded a couple weeks ago 12 00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:36,510 it's about an hour long interview all 13 00:00:40,819 --> 00:00:38,460 about the book all about his amazing 14 00:00:43,069 --> 00:00:40,829 near-death experience and how it changed 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:43,079 him from being a very skeptical 16 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:45,690 traditional neurosurgeon to become 17 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:47,489 someone who was very interested in 18 00:00:53,119 --> 00:00:50,280 ultimately convinced by the reality of 19 00:00:55,189 --> 00:00:53,129 near-death experience science so you're 20 00:00:58,329 --> 00:00:55,199 gonna hear from dr. Alexander next week 21 00:01:01,040 --> 00:00:58,339 but in the meantime on October 8th 22 00:01:03,410 --> 00:01:01,050 Newsweek magazine published an article 23 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:03,420 on the book and dedicated their front 24 00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:05,910 cover to this very provocative picture 25 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:07,920 of this hand reaching up to heaven and 26 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:10,020 it's all about the book and dr. 27 00:01:14,870 --> 00:01:12,660 Alexander's experience great news right 28 00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:14,880 well great news for everyone unless 29 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:16,920 you're a skeptic and an atheist and 30 00:01:21,980 --> 00:01:19,530 really against this kind of science so 31 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:21,990 it only took a couple of days for the 32 00:01:27,110 --> 00:01:24,930 skeptics to marshal their response and 33 00:01:29,090 --> 00:01:27,120 they came out in unison really all of 34 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:29,100 them delivering many of the same talking 35 00:01:34,010 --> 00:01:31,320 points and what I wanted to do today was 36 00:01:36,050 --> 00:01:34,020 break down some of those responses 37 00:01:37,970 --> 00:01:36,060 because I've actually had an email 38 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:37,980 exchange with a couple of those 39 00:01:43,070 --> 00:01:40,650 respondents Sam Harris who of course is 40 00:01:45,170 --> 00:01:43,080 a very well-known author and atheist I'm 41 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:45,180 also going to review the response from 42 00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:48,330 our old friend dr. Steven novella host 43 00:01:52,850 --> 00:01:49,590 of the skeptics guide to the universe 44 00:01:55,940 --> 00:01:52,860 and Huffington Post blogger and 45 00:01:58,210 --> 00:01:55,950 best-selling atheist author dr. Vick 46 00:02:00,320 --> 00:01:58,220 Stenger so I have quite a bit to cover 47 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:00,330 stick around it's going to be kind of 48 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:02,730 interesting and at the end I'm going to 49 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:05,730 publish a written response that I have 50 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:09,810 from dr. Alexander so let's get right to 51 00:02:15,290 --> 00:02:12,870 it the first response to the Newsweek 52 00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:15,300 proof of heaven article that I ran 53 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:18,420 across was from dr. Vick Stenger who is 54 00:02:22,130 --> 00:02:20,130 a very well-known in the Atheist 55 00:02:22,430 --> 00:02:22,140 community one of the new atheists and 56 00:02:25,250 --> 00:02:22,440 your 57 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:25,260 here a lot from dr. Stenger coming up in 58 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:28,170 a couple of weeks when I published the 59 00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:29,870 interview that I had with him 60 00:02:34,550 --> 00:02:32,190 fascinating fascinating stuff you'll 61 00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:34,560 really get a feel for where it's coming 62 00:02:36,260 --> 00:02:35,040 from 63 00:02:38,930 --> 00:02:36,270 I think the interview is going to be 64 00:02:41,510 --> 00:02:38,940 quite controversial and I think you'll 65 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:41,520 really enjoy it but dr. stager has also 66 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:43,500 written a response on the Huffington 67 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:47,130 Post to the Newsweek article on dr. 68 00:02:50,540 --> 00:02:48,930 Alexander's book and I was just going to 69 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:50,550 highlight one quick - from it because it 70 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:52,770 really jumped out at me and once you 71 00:02:58,790 --> 00:02:56,010 hear the interview with Vick you'll 72 00:03:01,820 --> 00:02:58,800 really be able to put this small quote 73 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:01,830 into a larger context of where he's 74 00:03:07,010 --> 00:03:04,050 coming from now he's a smart guy 75 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:07,020 PhD particle physics good writer 76 00:03:12,170 --> 00:03:09,750 comes across well but when you really 77 00:03:13,670 --> 00:03:12,180 push him he kind of really goes way out 78 00:03:16,430 --> 00:03:13,680 there and here was one of his primary 79 00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:16,440 critiques of dr. Alexander in the email 80 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:18,750 exchange that I had with him he says 81 00:03:22,310 --> 00:03:21,150 he'll he's a surgeon not a 82 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:22,320 neuroscientist 83 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:25,650 why should he know now keep in mind here 84 00:03:31,699 --> 00:03:29,070 that dr. eben Alexander is not only 85 00:03:33,130 --> 00:03:31,709 under Oh surgeon but received several 86 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:33,140 fellowships from Harvard University 87 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:36,330 taught and researched neurosurgery at 88 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:38,130 Harvard Medical School for fifteen years 89 00:03:43,420 --> 00:03:41,130 his curriculum Vita is about as long as 90 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:43,430 your arm so I don't know if this is just 91 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:46,620 ignorance on Vicks part or if he's just 92 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:49,410 blinded by this oh my god we have to 93 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:51,510 respond to this near-death experience 94 00:03:56,030 --> 00:03:53,489 stuff in the strongest way possible but 95 00:03:57,949 --> 00:03:56,040 it's just a foolish thing to say as a 96 00:03:59,930 --> 00:03:57,959 matter of fact you know we're gonna talk 97 00:04:02,600 --> 00:03:59,940 in a minute about sam harris who has a 98 00:04:04,820 --> 00:04:02,610 PhD in neuroscience from UCLA but isn't 99 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:04,830 a practicing neuroscientist and we're 100 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:06,570 gonna talk about Steven novella who is a 101 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:09,300 whozit neurologist at Yale so both of 102 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:11,010 those guys are really highly qualified 103 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:13,560 but I have to tell you if you really 104 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:15,060 step back and look at it 105 00:04:20,150 --> 00:04:17,280 dr. Alexander's qualifications for 106 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:20,160 assessing the medical condition and the 107 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:21,750 likelihood that this near-death 108 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:23,730 experience happened the way that he said 109 00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:26,430 it does his qualifications put him in a 110 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:28,740 much better position for assessing that 111 00:04:34,159 --> 00:04:31,140 I mean right this guy deals with these 112 00:04:36,409 --> 00:04:34,169 kind of patients all the time and he 113 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:36,419 understands the procedures that you go 114 00:04:41,089 --> 00:04:38,610 he understands what's likely to happen 115 00:04:43,010 --> 00:04:41,099 what's not likely to happen he's reading 116 00:04:45,559 --> 00:04:43,020 the research he's publishing research on 117 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:45,569 it so that's not to disrespect novella 118 00:04:48,999 --> 00:04:47,490 or Harris they're certainly very 119 00:04:52,159 --> 00:04:49,009 qualified and we have to take seriously 120 00:04:55,850 --> 00:04:52,169 their critiques but it does draw into 121 00:04:57,950 --> 00:04:55,860 contrast just how far on a line Vicks 122 00:05:00,260 --> 00:04:57,960 there is when he says this it's just 123 00:05:03,459 --> 00:05:00,270 kind of curious and I think it further 124 00:05:06,709 --> 00:05:03,469 demonstrates how the skeptical atheist 125 00:05:09,469 --> 00:05:06,719 mindset is so so much like the 126 00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:09,479 fundamentalist Christian mindset it has 127 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:11,460 a set of beliefs it has this knee-jerk 128 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:13,770 reaction to it and it just can't get 129 00:05:18,649 --> 00:05:16,110 outside of itself to look at the obvious 130 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:18,659 foolishness of some of these statements 131 00:05:24,469 --> 00:05:21,300 at least that's my take from this he's a 132 00:05:27,409 --> 00:05:24,479 surgeon not a neuroscientist what should 133 00:05:29,749 --> 00:05:27,419 he know yeah what did he know so let's 134 00:05:31,490 --> 00:05:29,759 move on to the second critique of this 135 00:05:34,879 --> 00:05:31,500 article in Newsweek and it comes from 136 00:05:36,529 --> 00:05:34,889 our old friend dr. Steven novella who as 137 00:05:38,869 --> 00:05:36,539 I just mentioned is a clinical 138 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:38,879 neurologist at Yale and he's also the 139 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:42,060 host of very skeptical podcast called 140 00:05:47,149 --> 00:05:44,250 the skeptics guide to the universe and a 141 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:47,159 lot of people really like Steve he has 142 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:49,409 this really nice bedside manner persona 143 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:51,449 that comes across and he's obviously a 144 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:53,580 very smart guy and if you've followed 145 00:05:57,860 --> 00:05:56,310 skeptic over very long you know that dr. 146 00:05:59,749 --> 00:05:57,870 novella has been on this show a couple 147 00:06:02,240 --> 00:05:59,759 times and I've appeared on his show once 148 00:06:04,969 --> 00:06:02,250 and you also know if you've dug into 149 00:06:09,050 --> 00:06:04,979 those shows that while like I say he's a 150 00:06:11,629 --> 00:06:09,060 really smart guy he's very very light on 151 00:06:13,909 --> 00:06:11,639 near-death experience science I mean he 152 00:06:15,529 --> 00:06:13,919 just doesn't know the research and if 153 00:06:17,659 --> 00:06:15,539 you want proof for that go back to the 154 00:06:19,850 --> 00:06:17,669 last time that he was on skeptic oh I 155 00:06:21,529 --> 00:06:19,860 mean he not only failed to back up a 156 00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:21,539 couple of his assertions but at the end 157 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:23,520 of that interview we left it that let's 158 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:25,110 come back on and have a debate and 159 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:26,849 Steve's going to provide this big list 160 00:06:31,790 --> 00:06:29,610 that he had of all the NDE research that 161 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:31,800 proved his point and when I preempted 162 00:06:35,179 --> 00:06:33,449 that by publishing here's the research 163 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:35,189 that I think you're going to publish and 164 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:37,710 here's how it's been responded to by the 165 00:06:41,179 --> 00:06:40,110 near-death experience researchers that 166 00:06:43,999 --> 00:06:41,189 we've had on the show 167 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:44,009 Steve disappeared and I've followed up 168 00:06:48,139 --> 00:06:45,750 with them multiple times on that and I 169 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:48,149 know he's busy and all that but really 170 00:06:50,030 --> 00:06:49,409 when you piece the whole thing together 171 00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:50,040 what you 172 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:52,020 see is somebody who's really not dug 173 00:06:55,580 --> 00:06:53,760 into the research really doesn't know 174 00:06:57,260 --> 00:06:55,590 there's no other way to say it what he's 175 00:06:59,600 --> 00:06:57,270 talking about when it comes to 176 00:07:01,040 --> 00:06:59,610 near-death experience science that's not 177 00:07:03,290 --> 00:07:01,050 to say that he doesn't know what he's 178 00:07:05,570 --> 00:07:03,300 talking about when it comes to Neurology 179 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:05,580 I'm sure he's really qualified and he's 180 00:07:10,190 --> 00:07:07,350 just a really smart guy in general but 181 00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:10,200 as you'll see in his blog post here he 182 00:07:14,510 --> 00:07:12,350 can be a little bit sloppy sometimes 183 00:07:17,810 --> 00:07:14,520 here's what I mean this is from his 184 00:07:20,210 --> 00:07:17,820 October 8th blog post titled proof of 185 00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:20,220 heaven question mark emphasized the 186 00:07:25,850 --> 00:07:23,280 question mark Steve States while his 187 00:07:28,730 --> 00:07:25,860 that as dr. Alexander's experienced is 188 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:28,740 certainly interesting his entire premise 189 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:31,650 is flimsily based on a single word in 190 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:35,190 the above paragraph while he assumes 191 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:37,290 that the experience he remembers after 192 00:07:42,650 --> 00:07:39,570 waking from a coma occurred while his 193 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:42,660 cortex was completely inactive he 194 00:07:47,330 --> 00:07:44,970 doesn't even seem aware of the fact that 195 00:07:49,580 --> 00:07:47,340 he's making that assumption or that this 196 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:49,590 is the central premise to his claim as 197 00:07:53,780 --> 00:07:51,870 he does not address it in his article 198 00:07:55,070 --> 00:07:53,790 well now of course Steve's at a 199 00:07:57,470 --> 00:07:55,080 disadvantage here but wait I'm gonna 200 00:07:59,450 --> 00:07:57,480 stop apologizing for Steve I do that all 201 00:08:01,100 --> 00:07:59,460 the time I mean he says these stupid 202 00:08:02,870 --> 00:08:01,110 things and then I wanted a pathologizing 203 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:02,880 for the guy and I'm not gonna do it here 204 00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:04,650 Steve you should have read the book I 205 00:08:09,530 --> 00:08:06,870 read a pre-publication version of the 206 00:08:12,290 --> 00:08:09,540 book and dr. Alexander addresses this 207 00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:12,300 directly in great detail or at the very 208 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:14,460 least Eve you should have dropped him an 209 00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:16,710 email as a professional courtesy I'm 210 00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:18,870 sure he would have as he did to me 211 00:08:24,020 --> 00:08:21,270 provide a written response to your 212 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:24,030 embarrassingly simplistic claim about 213 00:08:28,970 --> 00:08:26,850 the extent to which the guy analyzed his 214 00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:28,980 medical conditions in the likelihood 215 00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:31,830 that what you're proposing happened look 216 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:33,780 back to the blog post later Steve writes 217 00:08:40,250 --> 00:08:37,380 of course his brain did not instantly go 218 00:08:42,589 --> 00:08:40,260 from completely inactive to normal or 219 00:08:45,140 --> 00:08:42,599 near-normal waking consciousness that 220 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:45,150 transition must have taken hours if not 221 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:48,450 a day or more so this then is Steve's 222 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:50,250 explanation for what happened and then 223 00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:53,490 Steve writes Alexander claims there's no 224 00:08:59,060 --> 00:08:55,500 scientific explanation for his 225 00:09:00,590 --> 00:08:59,070 experience but I just gave one this is 226 00:09:03,380 --> 00:09:00,600 really interesting in a couple of ways 227 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:03,390 first it's interesting 228 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:05,430 again a Steve had read the book he'd 229 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:07,529 find that one of the most amazing things 230 00:09:13,220 --> 00:09:10,890 about dr. Alexander's experience is that 231 00:09:14,870 --> 00:09:13,230 his physician is in the other room with 232 00:09:16,699 --> 00:09:14,880 his wife talking about whether they 233 00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:16,709 should terminate use of the ventilator 234 00:09:22,190 --> 00:09:19,950 and they go in and dr. Alexander pops 235 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:22,200 out of this coma and he starts reaching 236 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:23,910 for the ventilator tube and starts 237 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:26,160 pulling on the tubes and then just his 238 00:09:30,650 --> 00:09:28,050 eyes wake up and he starts talking and 239 00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:30,660 in his book you'll read a letter for his 240 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:32,519 physician that not only says this but 241 00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:34,500 says that it's absolutely stunning an 242 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:36,540 amazing medical miracle that something 243 00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:38,370 like this could happen so that's one 244 00:09:40,819 --> 00:09:39,870 part of it Steve just doesn't know what 245 00:09:43,639 --> 00:09:40,829 he's talking about 246 00:09:45,769 --> 00:09:43,649 but the other part of it that I think is 247 00:09:48,350 --> 00:09:45,779 really interesting because it gets to 248 00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:48,360 the heart of the skeptical atheist 249 00:09:54,050 --> 00:09:51,600 response here is that why does Steve and 250 00:09:56,449 --> 00:09:54,060 these other atheists because Sam Harris 251 00:09:58,690 --> 00:09:56,459 really makes the same point why do they 252 00:10:01,550 --> 00:09:58,700 think that they only have to offer a 253 00:10:03,769 --> 00:10:01,560 scientific explanation why aren't they 254 00:10:06,139 --> 00:10:03,779 obligated to offering a better 255 00:10:08,829 --> 00:10:06,149 scientific explanation because hey by 256 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:08,839 any measure this is an extraordinary 257 00:10:14,449 --> 00:10:12,270 medical case Steve seems to miss that 258 00:10:17,870 --> 00:10:14,459 Steve seems to miss that an e coli 259 00:10:19,730 --> 00:10:17,880 spinal meningitis infection is rare and 260 00:10:22,610 --> 00:10:19,740 for it to take hold of someone out of 261 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:22,620 the blue this quickly is even rarer for 262 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:24,990 someone to spend six days in a coma and 263 00:10:30,620 --> 00:10:28,350 wake up is rarer still all medical 264 00:10:33,170 --> 00:10:30,630 knowledge confirms this but what's even 265 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:33,180 rarer is for someone to regain 266 00:10:39,019 --> 00:10:35,670 consciousness and have a crystal-clear 267 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:39,029 memory of everything that happened while 268 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:41,610 they were in coma and for them to go do 269 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:43,980 independent research on near-death 270 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:46,740 experience science and confirm that 271 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:49,920 their experience fits perfectly with 272 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:53,190 thousands of other accounts so the real 273 00:10:59,509 --> 00:10:56,130 question is why in light of all that 274 00:11:02,389 --> 00:10:59,519 does Steve feel it's adequate to provide 275 00:11:04,519 --> 00:11:02,399 such a silly explanation for what 276 00:11:06,740 --> 00:11:04,529 happened an explanation that any 277 00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:06,750 neurologist any neurosurgeon any 278 00:11:11,689 --> 00:11:09,570 neuroscientist would laugh at unless 279 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:11,699 they knew that they had to defend it 280 00:11:16,580 --> 00:11:14,250 because not to defend it would open the 281 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:16,590 door to the reality of near-death 282 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:19,140 experience so check me out on that see 283 00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:21,650 if you can find a case of someone 284 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:24,270 spontaneously waking up out of a coma 285 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:27,510 after having an e coli spinal meningitis 286 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:29,580 infection and then having a 287 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:32,400 crystal-clear vivid memory of what 288 00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:34,710 happened during their coma I think I 289 00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:36,720 believe dr. Alexander when he says 290 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:39,360 there's no medical history of that ever 291 00:11:45,140 --> 00:11:42,210 happening finally Steve wraps up his 292 00:11:47,810 --> 00:11:45,150 blog post with this Alexander in my 293 00:11:50,540 --> 00:11:47,820 opinion has failed to be true to the 294 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,550 scientist he claims to be he did not 295 00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:52,800 step back from his powerful experience 296 00:11:57,380 --> 00:11:55,920 and ask dispassionate questions well 297 00:11:59,390 --> 00:11:57,390 again I don't know how to counter this 298 00:12:01,700 --> 00:11:59,400 other than to say that's completely 299 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:01,710 wrong it's exactly what the book is 300 00:12:05,570 --> 00:12:03,090 about if you read the book you'll find 301 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:05,580 that's exactly what the guy did he 302 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:07,710 dispassionately step back from his 303 00:12:11,570 --> 00:12:09,780 experience he didn't know anything about 304 00:12:13,790 --> 00:12:11,580 near-death experience he didn't read 305 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:13,800 anything about near-death experience he 306 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:15,930 went and documented his account as best 307 00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:18,630 he could then he did as much research as 308 00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:20,880 he could as a neurosurgeon as a 309 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:22,680 neuroscientist to try and come up with a 310 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:24,810 conventional explanation for this he 311 00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:26,610 talked to many of his colleagues many of 312 00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:28,320 the brightest and well-respected people 313 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:30,390 in the field he tried to come up for an 314 00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:32,190 explanation for this and the best 315 00:12:36,770 --> 00:12:34,200 explanation that he could come up with 316 00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:36,780 related back to near-death experience 317 00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:40,020 science so again Steve is being sloppy 318 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:42,630 in his analysis and he winds up being 319 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:46,980 completely wrong okay finally become too 320 00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:50,250 well-known atheist and author sam harris 321 00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:52,620 who does as I mentioned have a PhD in 322 00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:54,600 neuroscience although he's not actively 323 00:12:59,420 --> 00:12:57,300 working in the field now Sam Harris is 324 00:13:02,450 --> 00:12:59,430 an interesting guy because on one hand 325 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:02,460 he's this fire-breathing atheist that 326 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:04,140 for many folks who go for that kind of 327 00:13:09,730 --> 00:13:06,810 stuff really admire him for but in the 328 00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:09,740 last few years he's been found 329 00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:12,660 backpedaling on the party line at times 330 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:14,430 and he's taken a lot of heat for this 331 00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:16,530 for example even in this post which is 332 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:19,500 very very critical of dr. Alexander he 333 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:22,010 writes as many of you know I'm 334 00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:24,810 interested in spiritual experiences of 335 00:13:29,420 --> 00:13:27,960 the sort Alexander reports hmm even more 336 00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:29,430 interesting is this 337 00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:32,700 I remain agnostic on the question of how 338 00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:34,680 consciousness relates to the physical 339 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,580 world 340 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:37,560 now that might slip by for most 341 00:13:41,810 --> 00:13:39,660 skeptical listeners and sound pretty 342 00:13:44,930 --> 00:13:41,820 benign but for the true hardcore 343 00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:44,940 believers in atheism if they're really 344 00:13:49,579 --> 00:13:47,279 paying attention that's quite a 345 00:13:51,889 --> 00:13:49,589 statement and again you get the sense 346 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:51,899 that he has to tread very lightly here 347 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:54,570 so as not to offend his fan base but 348 00:13:59,420 --> 00:13:57,450 then when he turns his attention on dr. 349 00:14:02,540 --> 00:13:59,430 eben Alexander and the near-death 350 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:02,550 experience account he gets right down to 351 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:04,890 business and gives people what they want 352 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:07,020 to hear here's what he says in his blog 353 00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:09,770 post titled this must be heaven 354 00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:12,630 Alexander's account is so bad and 355 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:15,899 reasoning so lazy and to densha's by the 356 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:17,490 way that's a word I have to admit that I 357 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:19,290 not only had to look up but I had to 358 00:14:22,699 --> 00:14:21,510 press the little audio button next 359 00:14:24,889 --> 00:14:22,709 through it just so I could make sure I'd 360 00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:24,899 pronounced it right anyways so lazy and 361 00:14:29,180 --> 00:14:26,640 to dentists that it would be beneath 362 00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:29,190 notice if not for the fact that it 363 00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:32,070 currently disgraces the cover of a major 364 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:36,120 news magazine so I read this and first 365 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:38,610 of all having read dr. Alexander's book 366 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:40,920 again something that sam Harris clearly 367 00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:42,390 hadn't done hadn't read the book and 368 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:45,680 having interviewed dr. Alexander twice 369 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:48,450 again something Sam Harris has never 370 00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:50,130 done never corresponded with him never 371 00:14:54,019 --> 00:14:51,870 emailed him or tried to get any kind of 372 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:54,029 clarification but anyway since I had 373 00:14:58,010 --> 00:14:56,010 this background with even Alexander I 374 00:14:59,660 --> 00:14:58,020 knew that Sam Harris was completely full 375 00:15:02,750 --> 00:14:59,670 of it as a complete nonsense 376 00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:02,760 I mean lazy reasoning here's a guy in 377 00:15:06,769 --> 00:15:04,740 even Alexander who spent months 378 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:06,779 devouring every paper he could get his 379 00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:08,610 hands on that might explain what 380 00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:10,260 happened to him I already went through 381 00:15:14,090 --> 00:15:12,089 and you read in his book and hearing his 382 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:14,100 interview all the things he did to try 383 00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:17,010 and understand what's going on I mean if 384 00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:19,350 anyone is being lazy here you'd have to 385 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:21,000 say it's Sam Harris he didn't read the 386 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:23,190 guy's book before firing off this 387 00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:25,950 incredibly incendiary blog post but 388 00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:27,720 leaving all that aside the other thing I 389 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:30,660 thought when I read this was great let's 390 00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:32,730 have a debate I thought here's this 391 00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:35,040 highly influential guy in sam harris 392 00:15:40,130 --> 00:15:37,860 who's spouting off about NDE science 393 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:40,140 when he clearly has no idea what he's 394 00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:41,970 talking about I thought what a great 395 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:43,470 opportunity 396 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:45,930 even Alexander will tear this guy apart 397 00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,690 and I'd kind of like to see it I have to 398 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:50,880 admit so I fired off an email Sam Harris 399 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:52,830 told him that I hate I had just finished 400 00:15:56,450 --> 00:15:54,930 talking to Alexander and that and I felt 401 00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:56,460 pretty confident that I could get him 402 00:16:00,650 --> 00:15:58,410 interested in this debate I said do you 403 00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,660 have an hour to spare to maybe square 404 00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:02,880 off against this guy well wouldn't you 405 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:05,220 know Sam Harris a little bit too busy to 406 00:16:09,950 --> 00:16:07,290 debate to face off with the guy that 407 00:16:13,190 --> 00:16:09,960 he's so fiercely and personally attacked 408 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:13,200 but he did offer this in an email to me 409 00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:16,050 check this out he says there's nothing 410 00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:19,620 to debate he can't reasonably claim that 411 00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:21,480 the relevant parts of his brain were 412 00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:24,180 quote unquote completely shut down it's 413 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:27,180 just not a factual statement and yet 414 00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:29,220 everything in his account hinges on 415 00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:31,950 making that claim and even if I granted 416 00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:34,380 that his brain was shut down it's not 417 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:37,470 shut down now and there's absolutely no 418 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:39,210 way for him to establish or even 419 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:41,250 subjectively know that he didn't have 420 00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:44,010 this experience as his brain was coming 421 00:16:48,590 --> 00:16:47,190 back online sound familiar it's exactly 422 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:48,600 the same thing you heard from Steven 423 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:50,670 novella and explanations exactly the 424 00:16:56,510 --> 00:16:52,530 same but never mind and then he wraps it 425 00:17:00,440 --> 00:16:56,520 up by saying end of debate as far as I'm 426 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:00,450 concerned so you got a love the way he 427 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:02,490 starts this there's nothing to debate 428 00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:05,970 and ends it end of debate as far as I'm 429 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:09,030 concerned no this is obviously over the 430 00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:11,550 top arrogance but it's more than that as 431 00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:14,400 I alluded to earlier it's a dead 432 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:18,120 giveaway that Sam Harris is totally in 433 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:20,850 the dark about near-death experience 434 00:17:24,020 --> 00:17:21,540 research 435 00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:24,030 I mean sure dr. Alexander's case is 436 00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:26,190 remarkable it's a medical miracle that 437 00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:27,780 defies a conventional medical 438 00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:30,540 explanation but what really makes his 439 00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:33,360 account so amazing is that it perfectly 440 00:17:38,570 --> 00:17:35,960 fits into a larger body of 441 00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:38,580 overwhelmingly compelling evidence that 442 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,950 concludes that millions of people have 443 00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,440 had these profound hyper conscious 444 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:46,080 experiences at a time when they had no 445 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:48,450 brain or at the very least a severely 446 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:50,910 compromised brain that isn't supposed to 447 00:17:56,660 --> 00:17:53,880 work in that way so if the fact that sam 448 00:17:58,700 --> 00:17:56,670 harris is afraid to face even hallux 449 00:18:00,170 --> 00:17:58,710 in a debate if that doesn't make you 450 00:18:02,510 --> 00:18:00,180 wonder about the strength of his 451 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:02,520 argument then the fact that he seems to 452 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:06,110 be completely unaware of the over 65 453 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:08,970 peer-reviewed clinical experiments that 454 00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:11,610 corroborate dr. Alexander's experience 455 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:14,400 well that should be the clincher in 456 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:17,310 establishing that this is just more kind 457 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:19,860 of political dribble that were feeding 458 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:22,050 the Atheist crowd stuff that they want 459 00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:23,790 to hear and wrapping it up in the way 460 00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:24,800 that sounds 461 00:18:29,390 --> 00:18:27,840 scientific or medical and and by the way 462 00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:29,400 if you really want to get into the 463 00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:31,320 medical part of this and the more 464 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:33,900 formalized arguments that one harris 465 00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:36,930 gives and then doctor even alexander 466 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:39,480 refutes i would direct you to the 467 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:41,970 skeptical website where i've posted a 468 00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:44,910 write-up that dr. alexander has given me 469 00:18:50,690 --> 00:18:47,880 in response to dr. Harris's critique of 470 00:18:52,340 --> 00:18:50,700 the blog so i emailed sam harris and we 471 00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:52,350 emailed back and forth and i said hey if 472 00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:54,150 i get a response from even alexander 473 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:56,100 i'll publish that and he was like great 474 00:19:00,410 --> 00:18:58,290 go ahead and do it so that's exactly 475 00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:00,420 what I'm gonna do if you want to wade 476 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:02,430 through that you'll see these guys are 477 00:19:06,050 --> 00:19:04,140 talking about stuff that I don't fully 478 00:19:08,030 --> 00:19:06,060 understand and I could read it into the 479 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:08,040 podcast but I wouldn't really know what 480 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:09,750 I'm talking about but I'll tell you this 481 00:19:17,630 --> 00:19:13,230 if sam harris wants a tangle with eben 482 00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:17,640 Alexander bring it on and if you don't 483 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:18,720 want to face him 484 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:20,910 please don't tell us that you're too 485 00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:22,710 busy that you can write these blog posts 486 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:25,620 that take you hours to do and you can't 487 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:28,050 face off with the guy for an hour what I 488 00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:30,210 think you'll find when you listen to dr. 489 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:31,920 Alexander next week and when you read 490 00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:33,870 the book and when you read the appendix 491 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:35,220 to the book where he gives kind of the 492 00:19:40,940 --> 00:19:37,950 more detailed medical explanation for 493 00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:40,950 what went on you'll clearly see who 494 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:43,260 really holds the cards in this case and 495 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:45,210 who's just blowing smoke well that's 496 00:19:49,070 --> 00:19:47,370 gonna do it for this intro to a very 497 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:49,080 interesting interview with even 498 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:51,420 Alexander and this kind of firestorm of 499 00:19:55,970 --> 00:19:53,970 controversy that sprung up from his book 500 00:19:57,980 --> 00:19:55,980 proof of heaven which I totally 501 00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:57,990 understand it's a very provocative title 502 00:20:00,800 --> 00:19:59,220 that you know they're trying to sell 503 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:00,810 books so we all understand why they 504 00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:02,490 write titles like that but nonetheless 505 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:04,830 we could have all anticipated that it 506 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:07,410 would generate quite a response from the 507 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:09,810 Atheist skeptical crowd at another point 508 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:10,530 you know by the 509 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:13,650 way I keep saying atheism scepticism 510 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,560 synonymous I mean do you need any more 511 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:18,480 proof you have two of the big names in 512 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:20,430 atheism Sam Harris 513 00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:23,310 Vick Stanger you have big name in the 514 00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,860 skeptical movement a J ref director or 515 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:27,360 some kind of title that Steve novella 516 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,310 has they're all singing out of the exact 517 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:31,440 same hymn book so let there be no debate 518 00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:34,050 about whether or not those organizations 519 00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:36,750 are virtually synonymous anyways please 520 00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:38,820 check out dr. Alexander's write-up 521 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:40,260 please join us on the forum for a 522 00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:42,450 discussion on these topics the place to 523 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:44,790 reach us of course is at skeptic Oh calm 524 00:20:51,410 --> 00:20:49,170 that's s ke PT i ke o calm you can link 525 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:51,420 up there to any of our almost 200 526 00:20:55,550 --> 00:20:53,490 previous shows into a Facebook email 527 00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:55,560 link to me an email link to a forum or a 528 00:21:00,110 --> 00:20:57,120 place where you can just leave a comment 529 00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:00,120 on the website I'm sure we'll get lots 530 00:21:05,230 --> 00:21:02,340 of comments for from this show I know 531 00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:05,240 that I know that these are very touchy 532 00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:08,520 sacred items for a lot of atheists and 533 00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,950 skeptics and but the only way we make 534 00:21:15,410 --> 00:21:13,440 progress is by confronting these issues 535 00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:15,420 head-on and really and really hashing 536 00:21:20,660 --> 00:21:18,030 out different opinions so that's it for 537 00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:20,670 this week as I just mentioned we'll be 538 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:22,950 back with the full interview with dr.